Kris Safarova  00:45

Welcome to the Strategy Skills podcast. I’m your host, Kris Safarova, and our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the overall approach used in well managed strategy studies. It’s a free download, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash overall approach. And you can also get McKinsey and BCG winning resume. It’s also a free download we prepared for you, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash resume PDF. And firmsconsulting is sometimes difficult to spell it as F-I-R-M-S consulting.com, forward slash resume PDF. And today we have with us Jamie Woolf, who is a renowned innovation cultivator, speaker, founder of creativity partners, and she was the first director of culture at Pixar Animation Studios, where she was recruited to be a force for constructive disruption. Jamie has 30 plus years of experience practicing Organizational Psychology, and draws on her impactful work with organizations like Google, DreamWorks, University of California and Pixar Animation welcome Jamie. Thank you. Let’s start with speaking about what was it like to be the first director of culture at Pixar Animation Studios.

Jamie Woolf  02:11

Well, coming into Pixar under the leadership of Ed Catmull was a remarkable experience. Ed Catmull is one of these leaders who is not only a renowned physician or physician physicist, he won the Turing Award. He’s, you know, the co founder of this incredibly successful, creative company. But when I talked to him, initially, I was really blown away by how well he understood the people side of business, and so to have a leader who truly understands how important it is to focus first on the people and the profits and the quality follow his mentorship and his partnership has been one of the highlights of my career. So there are so many things that were remarkable about about Pixar, and also ordinary, like any company, Pixar struggles with some of the same things that most companies struggle with.

Kris Safarova  03:15

What did he understood about the people side that most senior leaders don’t understand?

Jamie Woolf  03:20

One of the things he often said was, the higher up you go, the more distorted the truth. And what he meant by that is, by virtue of being the president, people were no longer as honest with him, and sometimes the problems of Pixar weren’t being surfaced to him, because, after all, he’s the president. He’s Ed Catmull, and so because he understood this advantage that comes with with power, but also the liabilities that come with power, he worked hard to build systems and strategies to surface the honesty and the creativity and the problems so that he could, as the President, tackle them.

Kris Safarova  04:11

Are there any of the systems or strategies you would be able to share with us?

Jamie Woolf  04:16

Sure, one of my favorites was there was a a time when the company was becoming very conservative, not conservative by but conservative by his standards. And so because the company was so successful, and I think many organizations run into this, when you start to be successful, you often start to be risk averse and play it safe, or at least try the strategies that have gotten you where you are today, rather than adapt and be agile to deal with evolving circumstances and the evolving landscape and so. So what he did was he realized that because, because the organization was getting so risk averse, he decided to implement many programs that created lower stakes to be very creative. So for example, Spark films that’s These are short films that wouldn’t be seen by the Pixar audiences. They were less expensive, and what they were designed to do was to have filmmakers learn the art of directing and producing and making and taking on higher level positions so that they could have a fertile learning ground that wasn’t so high stakes, so that the creativity would flourish.

Kris Safarova  05:57

So we didn’t get to watch any of the spark films, because I do remember some short ones that were incredible, like about the championship,

Jamie Woolf  06:06

Yeah, there were some spark films that actually ended up seeing, being being at the beginning of Pixar films that were either streamed or in the theater, but it wasn’t the plan. And so I think because of that, the stakes were lower, and the creativity was just incredible because of all the experimentation and trying new methodologies and working in new ways that can’t really happen as readily when there’s so much on the line.

Kris Safarova  06:37

What do you think made Pixar culture so uniquely innovative during your time there?

Jamie Woolf  06:44

Well, I joined in 2012 and I think by then, already the DNA of Pixar was incredibly creative. Yes, there are. It’s a company that blends art and technology. However, I think Ed and some of the founders, Steve Jobs, really understood what it takes to create collaboration. There’s this notion that that that art is made by some lone genius. And Pixar really understood that, no It’s the magic is in the collaboration. And so there were a lot of ways that they instilled an environment in which there was healthy collaboration, that there was safety to give the tough feedback, because everybody had the result, the same result in mind. And Ed often said that when the ego leaves the room and people are fully taking ownership for problems, that’s when the magic happens. And so they tried to extract out the hierarchy and the power dynamics that sometimes create a chilling effect for creativity.

Kris Safarova  08:12

Do you think that the magic of Pixar was because of company culture, or was it mostly because of specific few people within the company?

Jamie Woolf  08:22

Yeah, it’s a great question, and a question that I often ponder. I think it was a blend. I think that Pixar attracted a remarkable cadre of of artists. You know, the first directors of the early films really had had a vision and were brilliant, and at the same time, I don’t think the success that they enjoyed would have happened without a blend of the people and the belief that the culture mattered, meaning that they had, for example, brain trust, where they would all come together and show their messy work so that they can make revisions early on and not treat any of the work as too precious, so you can, you know, kill your darlings and not get too invested in in early drafts, and the idea that good ideas come from anywhere, that it’s not necessarily the person at the top of the hierarchy who is making the calls, that there might be people who have very little hierarchical power in the room who might have A brilliant idea, so let’s create an environment in which everyone feels safe to contribute.

Kris Safarova  09:46

Did you get to work with Steve Jobs?

Jamie Woolf  09:48

No, unfortunately, not.

Kris Safarova  09:52

So do you think that other companies can adapt some of the elements of the pixel culture to be more creative? Effective, and if so, what are the most important elements to adapt?

Jamie Woolf  10:04

Yeah, well, one of the elements that I think is most important is to have leaders. The leaders who are hired and promoted need to really be skilled in people management, not just competent in their craft, whatever that is, or in generating profits. And, you know, operating with that kind of efficiency to get from A to B, I think the environment and the environments in other organizations I’ve seen as well, where leaders really cultivate the agency, the full power of their teams, is where I see the most innovation and the most productivity. Too often I see organizations over indexing on on efficiency and on getting profits, which is killing the joyfulness, not to mention the creativity, the innovation and the mental health of of the people.

Kris Safarova  11:12

Do you remember specific pivotal moment from Pixar time that really shaped your view on how to run a successful organization that is very creative and creates magical things for the world.

Jamie Woolf  11:27

There’s so many, so many things. I mean, one of the most meaningful programs that I was involved in was a program for the women’s story artists. And so Pixar, for a long time, had only white men who were the directors of Pixar films, and the leaders saw that as problematic, and so we developed programs, one of them being specifically for women story artists to meet together and create a safe and emboldening learning cohort where we introduced coaching and workshops and guest lectures and mentoring so that these women had the scaffolding they needed in order to be elevated to be film directors. And that’s the kind of agility and adjusting to different circumstances that I found most gratifying and exciting.

Kris Safarova  12:41

Could you define constructive disruption?

Jamie Woolf  12:45

Yes. So when I was hired, Ed said that he wanted me to be constructively disruptive, meaning he was very honest that there were things that were not working as well as they had in the past. There was favoritism, there was the old boys network. There was so many things that happened in so many organizations, and he just happened to be very honest about that, and he needed somebody who was willing to confront some of those existing practices that were either biased or were stifling creativity and growth into the into the future. So he wanted somebody who was able to, I guess, courageously, poke at the status quo, poke at the existing structures and create change, positive change.

Kris Safarova  13:49

Was it very challenging, and what surprised you about this process of applying constructive disruption in your work?

Jamie Woolf  13:56

Honestly, yes, it was very challenging. It’s not easy to be the person who’s bringing challenges or poking at the status quo with some senior leaders who like the status quo, like things just the way they are, and so because he gave me permission to be constructively disruptive. I kept that in my mind, always that this is my job, and if it means that I need to question some behavior or some strategy or some direction or decision, I just always had in my mind Ed’s permission, not only permission, really mandate that my job was to poke at the status quo, but yeah, it could be exhausting. I think most people weren’t in a position to speak up to authority in the way that I did that. I felt my job was to do that. And so you. Because there’s fear around that. You know, it wasn’t like I didn’t feel fear to do, to do some of the pushing back that, that I had to do. But I think with with Ed’s cover, and many, many leaders who who believed in the need for some positive change, it became possible and easier.

Kris Safarova  15:24

Could you say a specific example?

Jamie Woolf  15:29

Not too specific, just for confidentiality, but there were times when there, there were problems that were happening on films, for example, and they weren’t being shared by the executives, so the executives couldn’t address these problems, but the crews were afraid of bringing up the problems, because that happens when you know you feel like there are problems. You want to at least feel like you can solve them before raising them to executives. And so we created, with Ed, actually initiated this program called peer pirates, where we turned the organizational structure upside down, and we had non leaders who were nominated to be on the ground, listening to people, sussing out what the challenges were and raising the problems to the executives. And so these people, who are called the peer pirates, who were not leaders, had permission to to say, this is a problem. And again, with that, permission, problems started surfacing with more fluidity,

Kris Safarova  16:44

And how was it received by other people on the ground that there are those pirates running around,

Jamie Woolf  16:52

I think, for the most part, again, because the it was sanctioned by the especially by the president at the time. I think it went very well. There were some problems around people bringing up the same the same problems, and in a kind of amorphous way. And so there were some iterations to the to the program, so that the peer pirates were better skilled at diagnosing what the problems were and communicating those problems. But that became a really nice added benefit to the problem, because now these peer pirates are gaining skills, really in leadership, to be able to communicate with confidence and clarity to the executive team,

Kris Safarova  17:49

Jamie and then situations where there was a lot of pushback when you tried to change something. How did you manage those situations?

Jamie Woolf  18:02

Let’s see the that the way that I often approach that was in not going it alone. So I found people who were what we called culture carriers, like people who passionately believed in serving Pixar and serving the success of Pixar, and people who had innovative ideas and really owned the problems felt it was. There’s so much pride that people have who work at Pixar, and so I would find those people who cared deeply, so that I could vet ideas and and not rely on just my understanding of problems and challenges. And then sometimes I wasn’t the best person to raise issues. Maybe it was somebody else, but by having a really solid network of people who were also on the lookout for how to make things better. I think that strengthened my ability to have influence.

Kris Safarova  19:12

And you worked with other great companies like DreamWorks, Google. Do you see any common threads? Maybe something you have observed between those highly innovative, successful companies?

Jamie Woolf  19:24

Yeah, and I think some of the companies that I see are organizations aren’t even like DreamWorks and Pixar, but you know, working with some organizations like departments within the University of California who I’m working with, and They just their purpose driven their leadership is truly focused on how to cultivate an environment in which everyone’s ideas are valued, and rather than trying to get as quickly as possible from A to B, they hold efficiency at. Same time that they’re also holding the value of iterating, generating ideas, having wild ideas, bold ideas, not just doing the same thing over and over. So there are so many companies that I think are some of the best companies in the world who understand that creativity and innovation is very different than efficiency and profit mindset, so they’re able to toggle back and forth and create the safety needed for that more messy creative process.

Kris Safarova  20:41

That is so true. So when someone is trying to foster constructive disruption, what are some of the biggest challenges leaders face?

Jamie Woolf  20:50

Well, I think again, like having the humility that we may not have the best understanding, like checking our assumptions before we charge in and say, you know, it should be this way. It should be that way. I think listening is a really difficult skill and underrated and to pause and solicit input from a diversity of perspectives throughout the organization before charging in and coming up with your solution or your criticism. So I think that you know, it’s about leaders who are highly skilled in listening and asking powerful questions that goes so far in having an understanding of what what the problems are.

Kris Safarova  21:49

And when you think back to your time with Pixar, what do you miss the most?

Jamie Woolf  21:53

The people. I miss the people. I mean, it was just when I first came in, I wasn’t at all knowledgeable about about filmmaking, and in fact, that’s why I thought, you know, the job wasn’t a good fit for me, because I wasn’t an even a fan of animation. My kids were, but I came to be a huge fan just because of the appreciation of the filmmaking process, and that taught me so much about the creative process and everything that I do, whether I’m writing a research paper or I’m working with a team, you know, I feel like I’ve really internalized that way of making films where you’re constantly iterating and blowing things up and trying again and adjusting and and seeking feedback. You know, it’s just such a robust skill set that I think people can extrapolate from filmmaking to solving any kind of problem.

Kris Safarova  23:00

Yes, I can imagine seeing all this magic being made. Of course, you would love what is created at the end. And it’s incredible that you can show it to your kids and say, I was a part of all of this. Yes, do you miss it?

Jamie Woolf  23:13

I don’t really go back. I like where I am now, working with creativity partners, because I have the best of all these creative approaches that I use with companies, but after 12 years, I felt like I was ready to introduce these concepts and strategies into organizations that aren’t as creative In the sense that we we think of creativity and and maybe are, you know, stuck in a paradigm where they think that they’re not creative. What’s been most delightful for me is to see people in finance and procurement or or health care to first say, Oh, I’m not creative, you know, I’m not a creative type. And then you see the shift that happens when you introduce creativity in some of the ideas and and activities that we do with teams, and they just light up, you know? And so my realization is that it’s right there under the surface, and we have such a yearning, such an appetite for creativity, but we forget, you know, we’ve it’s been a long time since we were kids, but we forget just how, how it opens up so many senses and allows us to solve problems in a much more expanded and I think imaginative way.

Kris Safarova  24:45

That is very true. So let’s talk about balancing creativity and innovation, but focus on efficiency and profit.

Jamie Woolf  24:53

Yeah, I think our whole society is over indexed on efficiency. You know, let’s, let’s just constantly be. Galloping forward. And, you know, let’s not even stop to drink our coffee. Let’s have our coffee to go and drink it while we’re walking. You know, I was recently in Europe, and I was noticing the stark contrast where people sit and have dinner for three hours. Or, you know, they see benefit in in sitting with a friend in the middle of the day for an hour. And so I think it’s a societal problem that has minimized our mental health. I think, you know, we know the statistics that stresses continues to rise, and that all the things that we try to do to bring mental health into the workplace really aren’t making a difference, because it’s not just kind of bringing in yoga classes and mindfulness apps. There’s, there’s this way that we’re rewarded by, keeping busy and being efficient, whatever that is. But I think what the problem is is that it’s not only decreasing our mental health, which then decreases our productivity, but it really stifles creativity, which we need now more than ever, in order to adjust and solve all of the vexing problems of our day.

Kris Safarova  26:26

That is very true. So for someone listening to us right now, and obviously they have, let’s say it’s a leader, they have a team they’re responsible for, and they are evaluated based on how much money the division, let’s say makes is a primary market that people paying attention to. So how would you recommend they go about balancing creativity and innovation, which we really need for the long term longevity and for creation of the magic for the world with that extreme pressure field because of efficiency and profit focus?

Jamie Woolf  27:03

Yeah. I mean, there’s no easy fix. It is that’s, that’s the difficult problem is, we’re being incentivized to bring in a profit, get results and and so it’s, it’s a mindset shift. And, you know, I wish I could in this short of time, boil it down to what we need to do, but I don’t have those answers. Either I think it it does require, though, a paradigm shift, or we just have a belief that if we at times, slow down, or we have a faction of the business that has, like the spark films lower stakes in order to iterate and brainstorm and generate ideas that we need both we absolutely need the efficiency and we need the profit, and at the same time that belief that we absolutely also need the more circuitous journey, that is creativity and and there’s a bias against creativity because it’s not efficient by its very nature. It is more circuitous. It’s, you know, we have to make mistakes and go in one direction and try a different direction. So that’s a hard thing to swallow when you’re feeling under pressure to get results, no easy answer.

Kris Safarova  28:29

that is very true. It’s an art as much as a science. Yes, we all have to figure it out, yeah, and continue to grow and pursue mastery and be more and more effective leaders. So how would you define a creative leader?

Jamie Woolf  28:44

That’s a good question. I think a creative leader is, first of all, one that sees that it takes a diversity of ideas to be truly creative, to not go it alone. I don’t think that’s how most of the greatest creative breakthroughs happen. And I think a creative leader also has intellectual humility. They know to ask the questions rather than jump to the conclusions. They have humility about what they don’t know. And again, back to Ed, he always said that he’s wrong at least half the time. So I think we need to understand that we’re going to be wrong, especially at the beginning of a creative project, before we get it right. So yeah, I think humility is a is a really important quality in a leader.

Kris Safarova  29:42

And of course, feeling psychologically safe is an important component for a team to be creative. Absolutely yes. How can leaders help their teams to feel psychologically safe?

Jamie Woolf  29:56

Well, one of the things that I always use to diagnose whether a. Team has psychological safety. Is What Happens After mistakes occur? Is there punishment? Is there blame? Are you looking for, you know, who did it? Or are you engaged in learning? Are you thinking about, Okay, what did we learn from this, this setback, and seeing it as an investment in moving forward, that it’s a natural part of the problem solving process. So I think that’s one of the most important things, and also that people truly feel like they can be their unique self, whatever that is, that they can bring their who they truly are in terms of vulnerability, but also in terms of their, their their background, their unique experience, their you know, family of origin, ways of talking, ways of dressing. You know that not not many organizations have people who say that they can bring their whole self to work, that they you know, many people feel that they need to erase parts of themselves, or they need to play the game and and it’s exhausting to to do that, to come to work and feel like you have to be a certain way that’s not Truly you. You have to put on a mask. So it’s a hard thing to find true psychological safety in the workplace.

Kris Safarova  31:29

Yes, for many people, it’s even hard to find it at home.

Jamie Woolf  31:33

Yes, yes, true. So true.

Kris Safarova  31:37

Do you think that leaders should try to use more humor and play to foster creativity.

Jamie Woolf  31:46

Yes, one of my business partners, the president of our company, Kris Bell, always says He that we, we have this notion that we have to be serious people, that that’s this paradigm of, you know, if we’re not serious people, then we’re not showing our value. We’re not going to get the promotion. That’s one thing that Pixar did really well, is a lot of play, a lot of levity, a lot of goofiness. And people would sometimes come in who didn’t know better and say, Wow. You know Pixar is, you know, everyone has fun, has so much fun here. And yes, that’s true, but it was also rigorous. So I think, yes, introducing play, the neuro, neuro science of that is well researched that you know, with with less fear, more play, more levity, we’re going to just be more productive and come up with better ideas. And play has to be coupled with with rigor. It’s not like we’re just playing all day long. But yes, I think one of the things that I always do in the meetings that I that I lead, and I advise leaders to do the same, is just take five minutes at the beginning of a meeting to humanize the room. And you know, whether that’s asking a goofy question or finding out what people did over the weekend, or, you know, asking people where they are on, you know, the range of emotions. It just allows people to bring that authenticity, that levity. And then we do a lot of work with play, playing games, improv, getting people to to really use their full imagination that they can then bring back to work.

Kris Safarova  33:47

Jamie and what advice would you give to leaders who are managing remote or hybrid teams?

Jamie Woolf  33:54

Yeah, yeah, it’s hard on Zoom. It’s so qualitatively different to be in person versus zoom, but there’s so many advances in what we can do on Zoom. You know, you can play on Zoom. You can have personal conversations on Zoom. We just have to get really creative about how to do that. But I think we’ve seen that that’s that’s definitely possible. I always ask people to keep their their camera on because, you know, it’s just so much easier to create community, that sense of, you know, that we’re all in the room together, and it also curbs the multitasking that can happen, you know, when our calendar, when our cameras are off, but yeah, we’ve had lots of sessions with organizations focused on Play and using music, storytelling, drawing over zoom.

Kris Safarova  34:52

How has your definition of leadership evolved over the course of your career?

Jamie Woolf  34:58

I don’t know that it has that much. Much. I think I’ve always thought that the best leaders are those who see the potential in in you, more than you can even see it in yourself. I’ve always loved that definition. You know that I remember one of my favorite leaders, he he had so much confidence in me, and I didn’t have confidence in myself, but he saw the potential. He saw he had confidence in me that made me, in His presence, feel more capable, more smart, more creative. To me, that’s a wonderful definition of of leadership.

Kris Safarova  35:40

100% agree this is so powerful. And you look at many successful people, it is not uncommon for them to have someone, somewhere in their life who believed in them, yes, and then they realized that, then it is possible for me.

Jamie Woolf  35:55

Absolutely, and also the converse is true, right? We’ve all had those bosses who who are micromanaging us or second guessing us, or constantly on the lookout for what we’re doing wrong, and then we feel the opposite of confident. You know? We feel like our self worth declines, our mental health declines. I’ve had so many people who are struggling with bad bosses, who start to question whether they’re even in the right career. It’s very troubling.

Kris Safarova  36:28

Yes, it can be very damaging, and it stays with people for a very long time.

Jamie Woolf  36:33

Yes, exactly. The research shows at least 22 months after you’ve had a bad boss, that trauma sits in your body?

Kris Safarova  36:43

Yes, and probably longer, if you don’t work, longer, it’s still in your body. Yeah? Awesome book, a Body Keeps the Score.

Jamie Woolf  36:53

Oh, yeah, right, the body, yes, I love that book. Yeah.

Kris Safarova  36:56

What is the most valuable leadership lesson you’ve learned? And who taught you this lesson?

Jamie Woolf  37:01

Wow, that’s a big question. So I’ve been alive for a lot of years, been working for a lot of years, so let’s see. I really think, because it was so formative, when I was in my late 20s, I had a boss who was like I described. He just believed in me, and he had no reason to, because I was, you know, fresh out of grad school. I really was not super confident. I wasn’t great in front of the room. I was doing leadership training, and I knew I was fumbling, but there was just a way that he he held me and elevated me and emboldened me and inspired me. And I decided right there, when, you know, I started to see myself as more confident, there was a pivot point where I started to really feel the confidence and and I vowed that I wanted to be that kind of leader, that and I wanted to to cultivate that kind of leader, because it was so powerful for me as a as I’m forming my sense of myself in the workplace.

Kris Safarova  38:16

Could you share with us books, podcasts, courses or resources that were most helpful for you when it comes to business or when it comes to life?

Jamie Woolf  38:25

Ooh, yes, oh my gosh, so many when it comes to business. I do love Adam Grant’s work life podcast. I think he’s just an encyclopedic and I love the way he conducts his interviews. I recently i This is not exactly business, maybe more life, but Julia Louis Dreyfus has a podcast called wiser than me, and she interviews women who are 70 and over about their advice, their lessons learned, and is so funny, but also profound. I just, I love this podcast and, oh, books, I mean, I have to say Ed catmulls creativity. Inc, the second edition is just, you know, I go back to it over and over and over again. I also go back over and over to conversations by Sheila heen and unlearning silence is a recent book by Elaine Lynn herring about how we’ve, we’ve silence has become a norm in so many arenas and how we can use our voice and navigate power dynamics in in life and in the workplace. So, yeah, I could go on and on, but I’ll stop there.

Kris Safarova  39:59

And I wanted to ask. How do you personally stay creative and innovative?

Jamie Woolf  40:03

Hmm, yeah, good question. I find, for me, it’s a sideways way to creativity. But I I need to walk. That’s how I that’s how I’m most creative. I’m constantly walking. I live in North Berkeley, you know, close to the hills, so I walk up out of my house and up into the woods, and I feel creative, you know, I could be in a crappy mood, and I start walking, and I start getting ideas and getting clear on what I want to do with my day. And I’m solving problems, and the I’ve read a lot about walking, and I think there is neuroscience to this, but I just have to walk, and if I don’t, it really starts to affect my mental health, and I feel far less creative. I also i’ll just doodle or watercolor and engage in creativity, and I find that it creates a sense of calm. And there’s a book, another amazing book to recommend, called your brain on art by Ivy Ross and Susan maximin, and it’s all about the science behind engaging in art and how it affects our well being. So I’ve just made a point of adding that to my exercise is to engage in it, doesn’t I don’t fashion myself an artist, but, you know, to just kind of doodle or or watercolor. I found that to be a really nice way to cultivate my creativity.

Kris Safarova  41:44

Definitely. And the last question for today, my favorite question to ask over the last few years, could you share with us two, three or even one, aha moment or realization that really changed the way you look at life or business?

Jamie Woolf  41:59

Wow, what a profound question. Oh, my goodness. Um, I’m gonna, I’m gonna get off this call and wish that I had a better answer, because right now, there’s so many things that I’m that are swirling around, but um, I guess my aha is a personal one, and it has to do with it has to do with my mom. And, you know, I was an only child. I grew up with a mom who was a school teacher, who wished she could have been a journalist, but her father said, Girls aren’t journalists. It’s not practical and but my mom made the most of being a school teacher, and was really passionate about about it, but I just had this aha that my if you call it, you know, calling to do this work really came from growing up with a really creative mom, always going to museums, always doing arts and crafts, but also seeing her not fully realized. And I just go back to that. I do go back to that again and again, but I recently just solidified like that, is it? And also, you know, an aha, that maybe this isn’t an aha, but you know that I I want to leave the workplace as a place of creativity, so that my kids, and also all the young people that I that I love working with, I love working with young people and coaching young people that I want them to have a workplace in which they can be themselves and where they can flourish.

Kris Safarova  43:42

That is very true. So important for young people and for all of us actually, to have a place where we can be ourselves and we can flourish so many of us, we have been very different people when we were kids, so much more free and we followed our curiosity and we felt happy about life, and then it’s easy to lose it in this so to say rat race.

Jamie Woolf  44:08

Yes, yeah, it’s like, what are we doing to ourselves? It’s not worth it. It’s like, there’s so much fun to be had, and you can have fun at the same time that you’re productive. It doesn’t have to be an either or dichotomy.

Kris Safarova  44:22

And more than that, you can create incredible things when you are having fun, when you are doing what you love.

Jamie Woolf  44:29

Yes, right? Creating more ease. It doesn’t have to be this serious person paradigm. We can I was just teaching a class, I guess, guest lecturing at the Haas School, business with business students, and we did art, and they were so excited, like, Oh, my God, this is mind blowing, that business could be like this. Like they wanted to hear all about how I brought, I bring art supplies, crayons, into the workplace. They’re like, what? That’s just amazing. So what?

Kris Safarova  45:00

That is very true. So all of our listeners will let themselves today, even if it is just for 1015 minutes, be themselves and follow your curiosity and do something that you really want to do. You don’t need to be a serious person all the time. Absolutely. Amen. Jamie, thank you so much. Such a pleasure speaking with you. Where can our listeners learn more about you? Anything you want to share.

Jamie Woolf  45:25

Our website is at creativity-partners.com and I am at [email protected].

Kris Safarova  45:37

Jamie, thank you again, so much for being here and for sharing all your insights and experiences with you. You had such an incredible career so far, and I’m looking forward to see all the big things you’ll continue doing.

Jamie Woolf  45:48

And I want to thank you for such thoughtful questions, thoughtful and profound and sometimes difficult to answer, but really good questions. So thank you so much.

Kris Safarova  45:57

Thank you. Our guest today has been Jamie Woolf. I hope you guys enjoyed it and made the most of it. So many things to take away. And our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the overall approach used and well managed strategy studies. It’s a free download we prepared for you, beautiful one pager, and you can download it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash overall approach. And then there’s another gift for you, McKinsey and BCG winning resume. And this is a resume that got offers from both of those firms, and you can download it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash resume PDF. Thank you everyone for tuning in, and I’m looking forward to connect with you all next time.