Kris Safarova  00:45

Welcome to the Strategy Skills podcast! I’m your host, Kris. Our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get the Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash overall approach. And you can also get McKinsey and BCG Winning resume, which is a resume that got offers from both of those firms. And you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash resume PDF, and it is F-I-R-M-S consulting.com, forward, touch, resume, PDF, and today we have with us Marie-Hélène Pelletier. Marie Hélène holds both a PhD and an MBA, and translates psychology research into strategies for business professionals, leaders their teams, so that they can use it to succeed and have a more balanced career, where they have a sense of well being, but also they are successful. She has over 20 years of experience as a leadership psychologist and senior leader in the corporate insurance governance sectors, and her award winning book, The Resilience Plan, was named at Top Five Books to Read by Ink Magazine and Forbes. Congratulations, Marie!

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  02:04

Oh, thank you. Kris,

Kris Safarova  02:05

So today we are going to talk about preventing burnout and how leaders can foster mental well being in high performance culture. Yeah. So let’s start with, how do you define resilience?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  02:17

Yes, and it is a great question, because even if we look at the academic literature, there are a number of definitions there, but one that many use, and that’s what I’m using as well, is our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger. Okay, so two key components of this is the adversity here, often we think of it as an acute moment, and it’s true, it can be that, but it can also be a chronic level of demand that stays over a longer period of time. Okay? So we want to keep both in mind and also there is this growth element to it, right? So we’re learning something from this and taking it with us as we move forward. So that’s the definition I work with.

Kris Safarova  03:03

What are some common misconceptions about resilience that leaders often have?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  03:08

Yes, and that’s a great place to start, because in order to get to these kinds of roles, we have to have demonstrated a high level of resilience in itself, right a number of situations. So sometimes people get to a point where they think that it is in them, it’s their personality, and therefore they don’t need to take any action about it. And that’s not true. Resilience is actually a state. So it’s not a personality trait. It is a state which means it will vary in time. And it also means, of course, that we can influence it. And what I would say is we very much want to do that, because there will be times when the demands are so high and many, all at the same time, often coming both from personal and professional at the same time that the more we enter those with the highest possible level of resilience, the better. So there is a that’s one of the misconceptions, thinking it’s part of your personality.

Kris Safarova  04:13

So how do we influence resilience? What are some of the most effective ways?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  04:19

Yes, and I’ll tell you, I bet, as people are listening to us, they can think of ways that we’ve heard even more most people have heard, especially after and during the pandemic, we’ve heard of very research based ways to increase our resilience and the problem outside. And I will tell you what they are. But the problem is not so much knowing. It’s in implementing. Hence my point about being strategic here, but the kinds of things that we know from research make a material significant difference in our resilience are things like exercise. Three types of exercise we want, Kris. Radio, strength training and meditative type activity like yoga, meditation, tai chi. The second category is nutrition, significant impact on our resilience, sleep, time in relationships we enjoy spending time with. So these four variables are probably those that would explain most of the variance in the resilience here, and then there are others, time in nature, volunteer work, spirituality, if that’s part of your life, if it isn’t focused on the other things. So there are a number of variables. The main challenge is, how do we implement this in a life that’s already so full, even at times, feels like it’s overflowing, right?

Kris Safarova  05:45

Thank you so much. This is very helpful, so let’s go a little bit in more detail into each just for people to have a very clear idea. So since you are studying it, you can share it with us, and we can have much better understanding of how we can implement all of those things in our life better. So cardio? Is there a specific type of cardio that you find is most effective?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  06:06

No, it’s whatever is going to work for you, whatever you can implement. But by cardio, we mean your heart rate is going faster, and we need a minimum of half an hour, ideally five times a week. So that’s what we’re looking at here, strength training, also a few times a week. And you can do this at home. You can do this in the gym. You can do this with body weight or external weights, but just some resistance type work, like even swimming, you know, the resistance of the water would contribute to that as well. And then there aren’t specific guidelines that I’ve come across yet in terms of research on the meditative type, activity, frequency or duration. But what we’re seeing is that, I mean, the more you can do this a bit every day, and build from a small duration into a bit of a longer one, maybe towards the 10 minute meditation, 12 minute meditation, maybe 20 the better, but being the very practical person who has been also in the leadership roles of all levels, the junior entry, the middle manager and the senior leader, and most, the most important piece is, what can you do? And because it’s better to find something that is realistically doable in your life right now, given how everything is, and start there, then to find something very ideal that you would like to do, but is outside of anything that’s doable right now, and therefore it’s probably not going to happen.

Kris Safarova  07:44

Let’s talk about nutrition. What are your recommendations?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  07:47

I know. So there research is pointing, so one very solid piece of body of research, so many studies, is pointing towards the Mediterranean type diet, so fish, leafy vegetables, olive oil, all that. So that’s one another line of research will simplify it very much and say, how colorful is your plate? So and so there we’re looking at plates that we want fruits and vegetables in it, in a variety of color, and at every single meal. There’s even research showing the links between mood and how colorful the plate is, just to illustrate the degree to which this is not just a nice to have. And sure, that sounds good, it’s very significant impact. What about sleep? Yep, there, it’s the seven to eight hours, and often leaders and senior level individual contributors say, Oh, I don’t need that. I am different. I’m trained this way. I’ve always been like this. All the things. Research is still saying we would all benefit from the seven to eight hours, and some studies will show how we will be. It will be harder to regulate our emotions with less sleep, which often will mean we won’t be as good a leader or colleague as we could be. Research also showing that, of course, we think better. We all know this, but it also helps the overall health of our brain down the road, so decreasing risk of dementia, and that’s also true of exercise. So lots of benefits in the short term, but also in the longer term, in protecting your sleep. And if we want, we can talk about the main mistakes people make there, but in terms of guidelines, it would be the seven to eight hours.

Kris Safarova  09:38

So you mentioned mistakes. What are the main mistakes people make related to sleep?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  09:43

Yes, so often, leaders need to be in touch with their team or be available outside of the usual daytime hours that they work, and so therefore they will have their phone with them at all times and answer it or check emails. All these pieces, which means there is often mistake number one, work happening in the hour before going to bed in that hour. And if you need to scale it down, maybe start with half an hour. But ideally we want to work towards one hour where we are not working. Ideally we’re not on devices either, because it is the hour during which we’re sending the message to the brain that things are calming down, preparing us for sleep. So that’s mistake number one, working until two minutes before going to bed, and then the only relaxing time is brushing your teeth. And then that’s it. That is not a long time to calm the brain down. So that’s one of the mistakes. Another one is to be on your device in the bedroom, or, even worse, in the bed. We don’t want this because, well, number one, we’ve already covered. We should be relaxing the brain. But also, if we do this, we’re now allowing the brain to associate being awake and engaged and thinking with the place where we wanted to relax and sleep. So it doesn’t create a helpful association. So I often say, if you can keep the device literally outside of the bedroom, and don’t even touch it if you’re using it as your alarm, by an alarm, a separate alarm, and if you do need to have it for whatever reason, put it maybe beside the door of the room, so it’s not right here beside your bed. So therefore, first thing and last thing you look at and all this applies if you wake up during the night. If you wake up during the night, we’re not touching the device either, because again, instead of helping the brain calm down and go back to sleep, it actually wakes it up even more.

Kris Safarova  11:46

Makes a lot of sense. I want to briefly come back to nutrition, because there is something I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts on eating raw vegetables versus cooked?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  11:56

From a resilience perspective, I have not seen research that goes one way or the other. It doesn’t mean it does not exist Kris, but I have not seen something that would specifically be more preferable from from a psychological, health or resilience perspective. So I would say at this point, research is just saying, eat vegetables, just colorful vegetables. Specifically, what the research is saying is we’ve become pretty good at going on the green, so color is more the differentiator here we want, we want to keep the green, but we want to make sure we add, like, the blue, the red, and, you know, all these things. So the research has been more on that differentiator than the cook, not cooked.

Kris Safarova  12:39

And what are your thoughts about the amount of food? Because there are some studies that say that you need to reduce the amount of food you eat, and that will be good for your body. It will keep your body healthier, younger, for longer.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  12:52

From a psychological perspective, because there may be some of this research that’s a bit more focused, say, on the physical health side of things, and so that part, I would not know as much, because my focus is more on the psychology side of things, from a psychological resilience all that the I mean, we the focus is a bit more, has been more on the healthy eating and having enough to nourish your body, your brain and all That kind of thing. But not in the specifics that perhaps this other type of research would would be would have an opinion on. So unfortunately, I don’t have a clear answer on that one for you.

Kris Safarova  13:32

Is there any information on how many times you should eat per day? So what is the ideal amount of times? Maybe one time or three times or two?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  13:40

Yeah, the research on nutrition for resilience has also, I mean, the one that I’ve seen, it doesn’t mean does not exist. Again, I’m not able to read all of it, but the focus, I think part of the reason for the focus, is that often studies will be looking at as an overall large population, what is the first variable in this particular category that we would want to hit and and that’s just my impression. Kris, I have not read this, but as I’m listening to your questions there. Oh, great questions. I’d love to know the answer to this too. And I’m thinking, okay, so why is it that? Yeah, no, I have not come across this particular area. And I think it’s, my guess is that it’s because we need to be at the basis of the pyramid first and ensure that in whatever we’re eating, in whatever quantity right now, the proportion of vegetable and colorful vegetable is perhaps not where it needs to be. So that’s, I think, why most of the studies are going there first. That’s my guess. But yeah, no, and there may be some studies answering exactly that question. I just have not come across them yet.

Kris Safarova  14:56

Did you come across any information on the amount of water? For some time, we were told that we should be drinking four liters, but then some people started saying it is too much, and some people even had issues because they are drinking too much water. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  15:11

And from a resilience perspective, it’s the hydration and that’s that’s important, but important, but not seeing a specific number, it’s interesting, right? Because the yeah, sometimes you start seeing some of those specific recommendations. And sometimes we have them, like, for example, from an exercise perspective, five times a week, half an hour. Okay, so we know. But for some areas, we just don’t have the numbers yet. Like, say, for example, in other areas, sometimes people ask me, is okay? So I mentioned social relationships. How often should we be social? You know, what is it? And there isn’t a specific guideline there as well. I’m sure at some point there will be. But for right now, it’s not specific. It’s just some level of regularity of connections.

Kris Safarova  15:56

So in terms of time and relationships, we don’t have any data, but maybe you need to feel that you’re getting enough Well, I would say, your loved ones.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  16:05

And sometimes it’s a there’s often a logic to see, to look at it from a weekly perspective, right? What I’m hearing often leaders say is, I’ll check in on all these things with them in my conversations, and then I’ll ask about that right time spent with friends, and they’ll look at me and realize last time was more than three months ago, because they’re working all day, all night, every day, in certain phases. That’s how it’s going to be. And so that is probably, if I had to guess, whenever we’re going to have guidelines. Is it going to be once every three months, probably not. My guess is more that it’s going to be along a weekly type of time frame and but you’re right. There are moments where we need to prioritize certain things. If sleep needs to be prioritized, okay, maybe that comes first. However. You do want to make sure you keep an eye on this. We tend sometimes to say, well, it’s just me seeing friends. I’ll see them next year. That’s fine, but the reality is, could that connection with friends brings positive outcomes for you and for the friend and so is something that needs to be part of your life.

Kris Safarova  17:15

Let’s talk about burnout. Let’s start with, how do you define burnout?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  17:19

Yes, important question as well, because we use burnout often, right? Oh, Kris, I’m burnt out. I’m burnt out. What we mean when we say it this way is often the first of three characteristics, which means we’re exhausted. We’re starting to feel very tired. But the world health organization does, we do have one definition. It comes from the World Health Organization. So it is an occupational phenomenon that has three main characteristics. One is we’re exhausted. The second is, we’re cynical. We don’t think any of this is going to change. And the third one is it’s starting to impact our performance. And so what’s key with this definition and with the reality of it is that burnout is not a diagnosis. It’s not a condition. It’s this combination of characteristics, and it can lead to conditions like depression, high levels of anxiety, for example, or on the physical health side, higher blood pressure. So the other piece that’s important with burnout, as we step here and look at the definition is that it is not something that resides just in the individual. The workplace is as is a system. And there’s us as individuals, the team we’re in, the organization we’re in, even the country we’re in, in the moment in time, really, but it is a system, and so burnout, a good way to think about it is in the relationship between the workplace and us. It’s a misfit. It doesn’t work well right now. And that’s important, because that also reminds us that solving for it is yes, in part, in our hands as individuals, but also in part and in the organization’s hands, and even in situations where it’s mostly in the organization’s hands, say we still have things we can influence and control here as individuals, for individuals.

Kris Safarova  19:14

Who are currently listening to us right now and they feel that they’re right now experiencing burnout, what practical steps would you recommend they take to recover as fast as possible?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  19:25

Yes, so if we think that this is what’s going on right now, then I would say we go to at least two types of resources at the same time. Connect with your physical health person, whether it’s a physician a nurse practitioner, to have an appointment to review with them, what’s going on for you. And the reason I say this is in many countries, this is a the person, if you need to be taken off work, for example, the physician will make that decision with you. But also, sometimes we have all these signs and symptoms and. It looks like it’s burnout, but it could be something going on from a health perspective, like a thyroid gland that is not functioning the way it should, or lower levels of iron, for example. And so the physician can help us figure this out at the same time, connecting with someone on the mental health side of things, like a psychologist, a counselor. If you have a coach, an executive coach, you can talk to your coach about this, who will then help you find these additional resources. Because if, in fact, it is now impacting your health, you will want not just your coach, but you’ll want other people as well. But that’s a good place to start if you have that resource, right? Again, whoever you already have in your circle of supports around you go there first. But the key thing is, you don’t want to just keep it to yourself, not talk to anyone, because it’s hard to self diagnose, to self figure this out, right? But and then in terms of actions to consider, it will, in part, likely include things that, like the ones we were talking about earlier. Go back gradually, if you need to, but go back to taking care of yourself a bit more, back to moving your body, back to Yeah, eating healthy, making sure you sleep, connecting with friends. And more than this will potentially be needed if, in fact, you have the more full situation, but these elements will be part of the solution.

Kris Safarova  21:28

Makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned in the definition you feel exhausted cynical, and it is starting to impact your performance. Are there any early warning signs, any warning signs of burnout that people typically overlook.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  21:42

And here’s the interesting piece here, yes, there are, because burnout does not happen instantly. It builds over time. But what we’ll do as leaders and high level professionals is we will ignore the science. We will say, Well, I’m too busy. I don’t have time for this. I keep going. I just put your head down and keep going right? So it almost feels like it happened suddenly, but it did not. There were signs we were just not listening to them. So here are the things like even we before we get exhausted, here we are feeling our energies lower than usual. Before we get cynical, we’re starting to not feel as engaged with our work. We don’t feel the love as much. And before we are having an impact on our performance, more things started falling through the cracks. You know, some degree of things falling through the cracks is normal happens. Everyone wishes it didn’t, but it happens to most people in a very busy schedule, but at some point you start seeing more things. So if we listen to these signs, yes, we can catch it sooner. And just like anything else, catching any challenging situation sooner means the solution is a bit easier to implement, but we want to listen to the signs. And part of what helps us actually listen to the sign brings us back to your first question of today, the misconceptions. Right? If we think it’s within us as it’s part of my personality, I don’t have any signs to look for. I’m fine. I’m like, inherently already forever resilient. But if we realize this is a state, then, yeah, we are paying attention to these signs so we can act sooner. It’s like from a business perspective, you know, we would never want to say, Oh, I don’t want to look at the financials, just It’s fine. It’s always going to be fine. No, we would want to look at the financial statements, look for the cues that something maybe not quite going on the way we were intending. And so we can take early action, right? So let’s see it the same way that self awareness and paying attention to how we’re doing and catching signs sooner, it’s just like that. It’s like looking at our financial statements often and catching early trends.

Kris Safarova  24:10

So earlier, we spoke about in depth, about specific things we need to do to make ourselves stronger so that we can avoid burnout and have resilience building on that, are there specific daily habits that we haven’t yet discussed, that you would recommend for leaders to maintain so that they can protect their mental health?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  24:30

I think that what I’m seeing and what led to, in fact, writing this book, is that we want to become what I call strategic about our resilience. Meaning, okay, so we know the kinds of things like you said. We discussed some examples of actions we can take. What we want is to find ways that these actions can actually be implemented in. Our life now, given how everything is and all the demands we’re facing. And so what I’m saying is, similarly to in a business situation, if we had a fantastic idea for a new product or a new service to launch, we would not just go ahead and launch it right. We would first say, Okay, who else is offering this? How much are people paying for this? Which forces could impact this demand in in the future, we would do all this assessment of the context, which then would lead to a strategic, strategic plan, or a strategy to lead that new product and service. So same thing here for our resilience. I’m inviting people to look at and I have worksheets. We can have them in the show notes, if the link to them in the show notes, if you’d like to revisit first your values. That’s a five minute exercise, but we need it to make your resilience strategic plan specific to you. So your values, I have an exercise to help you look at realistically your sources of demands right now and your sources of supply of energy. So you’re actually clear on where do you stand. Then we’re looking at doing a almost like a SWOT analysis for your situation, looking at in your context, what are the strengths, the weaknesses, the the opportunities and the threats as they relate to your resilience. 15 minute exercise, not too long, but once you have this, then you can create a strategy that works. And I can give you examples of how that can look like. But the idea is, if we’re just not exercising right now, thinking I’m going to, okay, go do that 330 minutes, five times a week, probably not realistic, but there are ways, if I have a strategic resilience plan, to build towards this in a way that’s doable.

Kris Safarova  27:02

When you work with clients and you’re coming up with this plan, and then you’re implementing it in their lives. Where do they struggle the most?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  27:10

By the time the plan is done, it it’s actually remarkably easy, and it wouldn’t be necessarily a struggle, more like a shift in their thinking. And I’ll give you an example, because I’ve made this fairly straightforward, concise, well organized. So if you follow the steps, you’ll get there. It’s not a struggling type situation. It’s fairly straightforward. But what it does force people to do is shift how they’ve been thinking about their resilience and their situation. So for example, that exercise I mentioned about your sources of demands and your sources of supply, what tends to happen in highly performing leaders and professionals is that they tend to underestimate the demands they have and overestimate the supply they have. For example, we’ll say, Okay, what demands are you facing right now? They will list two or three things from their work and that’s it. And then I’ll say, okay, also give me the demands on your personal life side. Okay? Now they add a few things, and then I’ll say and talk to me about the demands that are positive that you want to have. But there are still demands like, just got a new, very large client On the work side, or just moved to a home, a new home. On the personal side, it’s very positive. They’ve been wanting this, and it represents a demand, right? And then they’ll look at their sources of supply, and their first reaction will be, oh, yes, I I like to go, you know, cycling or running or whatever. And then I’ll say, Okay, how many times in the past two weeks? And they’ll say, well, the past few months have been very busy, so not in the past three months. Oh, so that means it’s not going on the list, right? And so through this more realistic lens, because we tend to almost have a positively biased perspective, oh, I don’t have too many demands, and I have lots of supply, maybe not the reality. And so shifting that perspective to just more realistic is then what informs next steps. And so it’s not a struggle, but it’s a shift in how we think, which then leads to a plan that is much more doable.

Kris Safarova  29:41

Makes a lot of sense. Can you give us a sense of what the resilience plan look like? Yes, we wanted to put it together.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  29:50

Yes, well, so it will look different for each of us at any point in time. So your plan now Kris would look different from mine and. And our plan today would probably look different in three months or six months from now, because we’ll be doing different things and have different demands, but basically it looks like any other strategic plan you’ve done before, where I usually recommend identifying three main strategic pillars, so three main areas you will focus on with a few actions within each of those pillars, the equivalent of tactics in a strategic plan. So let’s say, for example, the person has done their list of values. I worked with an executive in the process of the past few years, and so some of her values included relationships. One of them included being really challenged at work, and there were a list of others. There about 10 or 12. Then, as she looked at her sources of supply and demand, she realized that a lot of investment had been made in the work side of things, and she had neglected relationships that were important for her. And then we looked at her SWOT analysis as well. So for her, her plan had a pillar that she actually called relationships. And one of the actions was because what gets measured and gets done, was to make sure that at least once every two weeks, that’s what was realistic for her, there would be a social interaction, which was whether it was a coffee, a lunch or an activity with a friend in her schedule, and she would actually mark it so that she would know that she’s done it. And so that was one of her pillars. She also, given the overall context for her, had a pillar that was focused on boundaries. So for her, having clearer boundaries and protecting a bit of time, just for herself, was something that was not happening given all the demands. And it was a value for her. But she also valued other things. So then her for her boundaries was a pillar, and one of the actions was ensuring that when she comes home at the end of the day there was at least, for her in that context, half an hour where there was no touching of any of the devices, no checking emails, no nothing that was a full break that for her was possible and worked very well. So these are examples of what the pillars can look like, but they will be different for each of us, depending on our context.

Kris Safarova  32:33

This is very helpful. Can you give us more examples of typical pillars for your clients?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  32:39

Yeah, so you may have a say someone who realizes that as they do all the prep work, like the three main areas that I mentioned, I worked with someone that realized in this process that he tended to say yes to many things, and he tended just had a tendency to try to fit in more things always that he could get. You know, can get done in sometimes two minutes before a meeting or five minutes before leaving to pick up her his child. And so one of the pillars for him was time assessment. So better assessing his own time, and some of the actions for him was each not each time, but often, he would predict how long something takes, and then record how long it actually took, because part of what he for, specifically, he had a value say that was family here. And then he realized that in the demands, he had a lot to do, and was always trying to get everything done. And he realized that he just had that tendency which many leaders and professionals have to think that something takes a short amount of time when it takes longer, and for him, it led him to being late often. So instead of being on time to pick up his child, he would arrive late, because before leaving, he was thinking he could get one more thing done, right? So that’s why, for him, one of the pillars was assessing his time better and learning that, yeah, he tends to think it’s a two minute thing. It isn’t. And so for him, one of his actions was to always leave on time to go pick up his child and bring something to do if he ends up being there early and have a bit more time to do something. So that’s another example managing your assessment of time that can be one there.

Kris Safarova  34:37

That is very helpful. The next thing I wanted to ask you is, how hard was it for your clients to prioritize three pillars generally, is it very hard? And what advice would you give for someone listening to us right now, and let’s say they will be struggling prioritizing because there are so many important areas?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  34:57

Yes, it’s not. Yeah, hard necessarily, because what we’re saying is we’re not saying that what you’re not focusing on is not important. It’s just see it as putting it in parenthesis. So it is important. You will get to it as well, maybe in the next iteration of the plan. But similarly to when we focus on a specific plan in a business context, for example, we could be doing all kinds of things. We could be, you know, offering all kinds of products and services. But if we try to do too many, we will lose ourselves and will not succeed at any of them. And so if I use that parallel often, that will resonate for people, and they’ll say, okay, okay, fine. Yes, we wish we could do 20 things at the same time. The reality is that we cannot. So let’s focus on three. Just pick any three. They don’t need to be the most important for you right now, it’s not that judgment of which value is more important, sometimes starting with the lower hanging fruit makes sense. So it’s just starting with three so that we can start experimenting with this process and experiencing success with it, because then, as we experience that that success, it increases our sense of self efficacy, the belief that we can influence this. And the more we do this, the more we then grow the belief that we can influence this, also in the future, and even influence other things in the future. And so through this process, we build that momentum, that that positive experience that leads to the next iteration of the plan, in which you could focus on other aspects that are important for you.

Kris Safarova  36:49

What advice you would give to ensure our listeners do not overlook the most important pillars are there? Maybe specific questions people can ask themselves to help them identify the top pillars for them.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  37:04

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that people tend to see it. It tends Kris to emerge as because we start from their values, and then we look at supply and demand. Often, people, even with these first two steps, they start seeing the opportunities. They start seeing the place where, yes, it sometimes will be the lowest hanging fruit, something small that would make a significant difference. And so, because you started with your values, you will get to it. They will all be important for you. That’s the the definition of those values, what’s most important for you in life. So you will get to the important things. What I would say is, if your you know your listeners are wondering, for them, really what, what should it be? Or am I missing something, or I want the guidance of someone who will help me? You can work with whoever you already have in your support network, whether it’s your coach, your physician, you’re a psychologist. You could work with me if you want. I also do plans with people in the context of executive coaching, so sometimes an external head will help you identify, perhaps blind spots. In my experience, as people have followed these steps, I would say, try that first, because quite likely you will identify what are the right next, next things for you to focus on.

Kris Safarova  38:38

And he gave us some examples earlier today, in terms of, once you know the pillar you want to focus on, then what activity you need to make sure you are tracking so that you are implementing your plan success. But if, for example, you mentioned someone for whom a pillar was boundaries, and then the activity was to make sure that this client had 13 minutes away from devices every evening. What additional guidance could you give to someone once they identify the top pillars, how do they identify activities they should be tracking?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  39:12

Yes, so the way we get there is you’re looking at the name of your pillar. And sometimes a prompt that I will use is I’ll say, how would you bring this pillar to life? So in your life, if we were to translate this in a behavior or an action that would support that pillar, what could it look like? So sometimes that’s a way to translate it into an action. The other piece is we really want these actions to be so doable in your life that I often give the guidelines of okay, if you’ve written a few actions here, are you on a zero to 100 scale? How certain are you that. Can start implementing this in the next 48 hours. And if, and this is not a research based numbers, it’s just my my own experience, but I usually say, You know what, if your number is 85 or below, make the action simpler. I’ll give you an example. So often, professionals and leaders know the research behind the importance of and the value of meditation, and that’s true, it’s very established. It would help all of us, okay? And so sometimes the pillar becomes, yeah, meditation. And so then the action sometimes will be okay, well, I’ll try meditating five minutes, three days a week, okay. But then, if they think in their actual life, given how busy everything is, given that they’ve never done any meditation, how likely are they to do this, starting within the next couple of days, and maintain it, sometimes, they’ll say, Well, realistically, maybe 55% so what we want is to make this smaller. Can we, for example, say, each time you’re going to wash your hands, while you’re washing your hands, you will take five deep breaths, start with all the air out, and then bring it in slowly. So what we’re doing now is this action is very doable. We are washing our hands many times a day. It’s not requiring any additional amount of time. It’s not requiring an app or a new training for you, it’s just at a very early beginner level starting to bring that pillar to life in your life. So see, this is now an action that’s small enough that, yep, we can start in 48 hours, and then we’re building the momentum.

Kris Safarova  41:51

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much. What is your advice on managing potential pushback from family or team as you implement your plan?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  42:00

Well, a lot of people around us will actually be interested and happy that we are, because we individuals benefit from it, but people around us will benefit from that too. And in fact, people may be interested in doing that for themselves as well. So there may be a good, positive reception. But to your point, sometimes there will be a pushback, not so much because they don’t want us to do this, but more because it represents a change, and they’re just not used to this different way of doing things. So say, for example, someone may be in the habit of constantly being doing five things at the same time when they get home in the evening, okay? And there are advantages to this, right? Many things are getting done, but at the same time, this individual may have realized that they need to take care of themselves and also have a pause between the very busy day they just had and the busy evening that they will have. And there may be, therefore, a decision, for example, in their plan, to take at least five minutes to just sit in the living room when they arrive, doing nothing, just sitting looking by the window or looking at a candle, if that relaxes them, whatever. And so in this context, that may be very surprising for the family or other people around to see the person do this point is Communicate, communicate your plan. There will be people that you don’t need to communicate it with, but if there are people close to you that will see a change and may have questions or may be surprised by it, you can proactively communicate what your plan is, and again, who knows, it could inspire them to implement their own plan.

Kris Safarova  43:52

How do you see the future of workplace mental health evolving in large organizations?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  43:58

Oh, that’s a big question it has so in organizations workplace, mental health has started receiving attention in the past few years. In Canada, it has received attention for longer than this because there were structures created like the Mental Health Commission of Canada that, in part, looked at the mental health of organizations and people at work in different countries, different countries are at different places in their journey about this. What we are seeing, and we’ve that’s one positive, if I can express it this way, from the pandemic, there’s been much more conversations about mental health in general and mental health in the workplace, and so the level of conversation has significantly increased, and it’s continuing to increase. So we’re seeing probably an exponential curve here, and it is. Extremely positive. So what I think we will see is even more attention to mental health. Just like in many countries, we’re seeing more attention to mental health in schools, children are talking about it much more. So it changes many aspects, from having more knowledge, better understanding, accessing resources sooner, less stigma, more normalizing that this is part of our overall health, just like physical and financial health as well. And there are, they are all connected. So what I think will happen is we’ll talk even more about it, and at some point we’ll be even more just naturally integrated. So can so we can optimize it as we continue to face all the new demands and challenges, including, for example, AI that’s coming in much more significant presence in all aspects of our lives, including at work.

Kris Safarova  45:58

And next, I will ask you my favorite question to ask over the last few years, what were aha moments, realizations that really changed the way you look at life or the way you look at business?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  46:10

Well, you know, there are many. One is, I’ll tell you, there is a story I’ve put in my book Kris that is not a work story, but it does then connect in a very significant, I think, way, with how we need to think about resilience. But one of the things I love doing is hiking in the mountains. And me and my husband have done a fairly large amount of multiple day tracks in various countries, and quite enjoy this. And at some point we had gone and done a trek in the Canadian Rockies. It was an eight day trek, and you’ll have the full full story in the book there. But the point is, on day one of that trek, we crossed a river, and we had to go in the river to cross it, and all in we did all the planning discussions, strategizing the whole thing. And it worked for a number of reasons. We actually could not complete the full traverse. We had to turn around and therefore cross this river again at day eight. Only that time, the river was much bigger. It had received eight more days of a lot of snow melting, so basically the same place was now a much bigger river. And basically we did not, for all kinds of reason, again, more to the story in the book, but for all kinds of reason, we actually did not modify our approach, and it puts both of our safety at risk. I could have drowned in that river, basically. And the learning for me in this overall story, the realization was, wait a second, this is the same in our professional lives, where, when we have full of energy and everything’s good, we are planning and we’re implementing the plans, and it’s working, and everything’s good. Where we get caught, from a resilience perspective, is when the equivalent of day eight over here, when we have many demands, unexpected, larger ones, we’re already exhausted, and then we don’t adapt to the new context. We don’t have a strategy or a plan, and then we become at risk. And in that is that learning that, in part, informed the book, where I realized, Okay, wait, we actually do need to think about resilience from a strategic perspective, so that we have more visibility on when the context changes, and adapt our approach in those circumstances to stay highly performing and healthy.

Kris Safarova  48:55

If there is one message you want leaders to take away from today’s discussion, what would it be?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  49:00

That resilience is not a given. You need a strategic plan.

Kris Safarova  49:06

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. Is there anything else you want to mention, and maybe something that you wanted me to ask and they didn’t? And also, where can our listeners learn more about you? By your book? Anything you want to share?

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  49:20

Thank you. Well, you can learn more about my book and me at the resilienceplan.com so you’ll see the book and information about what I do. I’m also always inviting people to connect on LinkedIn, that’s a great place to share ideas. I’d love to see yours, and you’ll see some of my thinking as well there and the book itself can be found anywhere you usually buy your books. I always encourage people to go to your local bookstore. If they have it great. If they don’t have it great as well, they will be happy to order it for you. Or you can purchase it online, Amazon, Barnes and Noble wherever you buy usually.

Kris Safarova  50:00

Marie Hélène, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate everything you shared. I think this is a very important topic, and many of the things we know but we are not implementing it systematically. So this is an important discussion, sort of a wake up call to put together plan and make sure that we are diligently implementing it, because if we have our health, then we can build out other things, but if we lose our health, that is our most important asset, then no amount of success in the workplace will make up for it.

Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier  50:32

Yes, so true. Well said. Kris, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for all your great question. Really enjoyed being here.

Kris Safarova  50:39

Our guest today again has been Marie-Hélène Pelletier, I love your name so beautiful. Check out your book, The Resilience Plan. And our podcast sponsor today is strategytraining.com. If you want to strengthen your strategy skills, you can get a gift from us. It’s called Overall Approach Used in Well-Managed Strategy Studies. It’s a free download we prepared for you, and you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash overall approach, and you can get the second gift, which is McKinsey and BCG Winning Resume that got offers from both of those firms. And you can get it at firmsconsulting.com forward slash resume PDF. Thank you everyone for tuning in, and I’m looking forward to connect with you all next time.